What's Left of Maplewood (MN)

We can't draw, so we are left with verbal cartoons about Maplewood city politics.

Wednesday, December 20, 2006

Cave: The Weakest Link

The folks at Maplewood Voices put up an audio clip from Monday's meeting, where the mayor discusses her "math" about possible open meeting law violations. According to Prof. Schultz, one of the council members confessed to violating the law. Longrie says that she didn't violate it. She also says Hjelle never let Prof. Schultz interview him, so it couldn't have been him.

I suppose she might like people to infer that either Rossbach or Jueneman confessed to a violation, but that defies logic, since they aren't a quorum and they're the minority in all the substantial votes that might be at issue. (I suppose Diana's supporters might like to believe that Rossbach, Jueneman and Cave conspired to agree to approve the minutes or agenda in advance of public discussion, and this is what Prof. Schultz is talking about.)

In effect, Diana pointed a big fat arrow at Rebecca Cave.

Of course, Rebecca couldn't violate the meeting alone. So that means that Diana is also calling Rebecca a liar, or she's saying Rebecca is ignorant and doesn't know what she's talking about.

Either way, it shows the contempt that Mayor Longrie actually has for Rebecca. Cave is just her empty-headed cheerleader (watch their body language closely in the meetings, as Diana all but says "you can go ahead and make this motion for me now, dearie"), and Diana will throw her under a bus in a heartbeat if it serves her agenda. As long as Rebecca faithfully and unquestioningly follows the mayor's lead, she'll get the pampering of a prized poodle -- but cross her on anything serious (those 4-1 votes where the mimes concern for fiscal responsibility after everyone else has voted don't count), and there will be hell to pay.

The information emerging also paints a picture of what may have happened. Here's the emerging likely scenario:

First of all, the mayor trusts Rebecca, as her protege lacking a will of her own, to follow her lead without asking questions. Had Diana appointed a convicted child molester, she trusted that Rebecca would have voted for him, out of fear of Diana if not blind trust. (As an anonymous pro-Diana individual puts it in our comments, "Could you even fathom a scenario where one of the three would have voted no on manager replacement? No." Mindless obedience is what Diana's followers celebrate.)

Hjelle is a bit more of a wild card. Unlike Rebecca, he was a winner in the open election. His voting pattern more often strays from Diana (though still not by much), and he often shows exasperation with the tedious way that she slows down the meetings to hear herself talk more. So to be sure of getting her way, Diana would likely have gone to Hjelle beforehand to know that he would support her move to install Copeland.

But Rebecca may not have been quite the empty puppet that Diana believes. Rebecca may herself have talked with Hjelle, perhaps with specific concerns about who to install in the position. They knew from the previous meeting that they needed someone, and Cave may have been concerned about the previous plan to elevate a person from the staff.

So if Cave asked Hjelle (remember, Hjelle and Cave's husbands are fellow firefighters, with their personal grudges against the old city manager and other people in city hall), which only makes sense, he might have reassured her that Diana was planning to nominate a friend of hers, who they could trust to do their bidding.

In spite of the mayor's contempt for her, Rebecca may have the intellect to put things together, and realize that this constituted a serial meeting and a textbook case of an open meeting law violation: a quorum coming to a decision on a course of action, outside of public meetings, specifically in order to avoid public discussions of the issue at hand. They wanted to avoid questions of "why not promote someone temporarily from within city hall, to maintain continuity?" and they wanted to avoid discussions of Copeland's background, details of his relationship to the mayor and her husband etc. The earlier the information on Copeland's background came out, the harder it would be to install him. By delaying the background check and discussion of it as long as possible, they were able to say, "See, those qualifications didn't matter -- he's been in the position for months, and the whole city has not caught fire and burned to the ground, so he's doing just great!!"

In any case, to be clear, the trio's explicit defense against the open meeting law is that they didn't really care about the qualifications of the interim manager and of course they were going to do whatever the mayor wanted without asking any questions. That's a heck of a defense for an elected leader to put forward.

31 Comments:

  • At 1:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Let's get back from that trip to Fantasy Island. As I have said in other posts, lots of wild guesses, personal attacks, back stabbing, but no factual evidence that Diana, Rebecca, or Erik did anything wrong.

    God Almight Prof Schultz should be worshiped for the God that he is. Give me a break! Enough with Schultz. If the guy has anything, then tell him to start naming names. If he won't, then the guys got nothing.

    The analysis of the three council members would probably mean something to me if I even thought for a second that the author knew anything about them in the first place.

    Armchair experts at work.

     
  • At 9:02 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    In reference to the armchair experts at work...

    "Umm, Hello, Kettle? This is the pot. You're black."

     
  • At 9:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Hjelle, we refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

     
  • At 9:54 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I feel sorry for Prof. Schultz because of the way he got dragged into this mess. He was approached by Copeland. He did not come snooping around on his own. And now that his report shows the clowncil in a poor light, they attack him. Typical clowncil behavior!

     
  • At 10:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Anonymous 1:19...

    Do you use the word worshipping because he is someone we can believe? He actually had the audacity, after being hired by the puppet king himself, to speak out against the puppet king. This makes him at least more credible than the threesome and their Open Meeting Law math.

    No one is worshipping Schultz. He simply stated that one of the members violated the Open Meeting law. That is not something that he just made up.

    As for why he won't take it further...Do you have the money to spend defending a silly lawsuit from three vindictive toddlers? He likely has better things to do...

     
  • At 10:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Touche' Frostbrand. Touche'!!

     
  • At 2:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Some people are missing the point with these Schultz claims.

    So Schultz claims that some people violated the open meeting law. Now I don't expect for him to file a complaint. After all, the guy lives in Saint Paul. He has no direct iron in the fire.

    My issue is why won't Schultz provide the rest of us the details so we can file a complaint ourselves?

    Since Schultz won't spill the goods, the only conclusion I can come to is that something happened that he didn't personally like, but was not illegal. If he spilled the beans and a court tossed the claims, Schultz would look bad.

    It seems a little self serving on Schultz's part to cry open meeting violation, but then not disclose the materials for the purpose of protecting his reputation.

     
  • At 3:18 PM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > My issue is why won't Schultz
    > provide the rest of us the details
    > so we can file a complaint ourselves?

    I dunno. What reason did he give you for refusing your request when you asked him for the details so you could file your own lawsuit?

     
  • At 3:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I have heard that reason Schultz won't disclose names is because he agreed to the particpants' anonymity beforehand, so that they would be willing to participate in surveys and talk with him at all. He can't very well violate it, since he'd be violating his origional agreement and jeprodising his oportunities to do similar work in the future for other cities.

     
  • At 4:14 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Well isn't this convenient for Schultz. He says "come talk to me, I can help you solve your problems and I won't disclose your names."

    Then Schultz goes to the media and says the council is violating the law. When we ask who and percisely what, he conveniently says, "well I promised not to tell on the council members."

    So essentially we have no way of telling whether Schultz is blowing smoke. How convenient for him.

    Sorry but after hearing this, Schultz went from little credibility to zero credibility.

    Doesn't this guy have some ethical obligaton to report a crime?

    Something is fishy with this whole thing.

     
  • At 11:04 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    Dear 4:14 AM,

    > Doesn't this guy have some ethical
    > obligaton to report a crime?

    Remember what I said about your deficient reading comprehension?

    Violations of the open meeting law are not criminal matters, but civil.

    Besides, who would he report it to? The Ramsey County Attorney, perhaps? Then what would you say about him?

    Wait, I guess we already know.

    This is another example of your tortured logic. Because Schultz did not take this matter to law-enforcement authorities (who would not do anything about it), you say his ethics are lacking; in another case, when someone DID take the matter to law enforcement authorities (Cardinal asking the county attorney), you said HIS ethics were lacking.

    Welcome to Longrie Logic Land. ROFLMAO.

    Love,
    Frostbrand

     
  • At 12:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Frostbrand, you miss the point again. I never said report a violation to the wrong agency. I said you have an obligation to report a violation to the correct agency.

     
  • At 1:22 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    So, dear expert, please identify the correct agency to which open meeting law violations are supposed to be reported.

    I thought we had established that there was no such agency; individual parties pursue open meeting law suits as civil matters.

    You might say that the public at large of Maplewood is the "correct agency." In that sense, Schultz did exactly the right thing, by bringing the matter to the attention of those who could choose to do something about it.

     
  • At 3:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I think it was mentioned a few posts earlier that you file your complaint with the Information Policy Analysis Division of the Department of Administration, State of Minnesota.

    On the Schultz issue, he did nothing but a disservice to the community by crying wolf, but keeping just enough information to himself so we have no idea whether Schultz is correct or full of BS>

     
  • At 10:41 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > I think it was mentioned a few posts
    > earlier that you file your complaint
    > with the Information Policy Analysis
    > Division of the Department of
    > Administration

    You did bring that up earlier. However, this is a far cry different from "reporting a crime." All IPAD can do is issue an advisory opinion, and you have to pay them to do that.

    Look at this division's web page:
    http://www.ipad.state.mn.us/opinions/index.html

    (a) If you want to ask them to issue an opinion, the cost is $200

    (b) "Advisory opinions concerning the Open Meeting Law are not binding on the governing body that is the subject of the opinion."

    (Just to round out that passage for completeness: "A person or governing body subject to Chapter 13D that acts in conformity with an opinion will not be liable for compensatory or exemplary damages, awards of attorney's fees, or any other penalty under Chapter 13D. However, in a related judicial proceeding, the court is not required to defer to an Open Meeting Law opinion.")

    So if Schultz went to them, they'd say, "Give us $200 and we'll offer you an opinion on whether we think your case will hold up in court, though the court may well disagree."

    So, just to be clear, your position is that you think he is ethically obliged to shell out $200 from his own pocket and do this?

    That's nice. Gosh, isn't it great how everyone can have opinions.

     
  • At 11:03 AM, Blogger drawnLeftward said…

    Dr. Schultz's relationship to the city was and is as a paid consultant with contractual obligations. He didn't arrive on some Zich-like white horse to carry out a personal crusade. He was hired to conduct a workshop and write a report having made some assurances of confidentiality. Period.

     
  • At 3:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I do know that IPAD started charging a fee about a year ago on just open meeting violation claims. You want to know the reason why? Well there are people out there who like to cry wolf and make claims that their governments are violating the open meeting laws. Typically they have no idea what they are talking about and are just trying to grab media headlines. Sound familiar? Well in order to cut down on the phony claims, they were forced to institute a fee in order to weed out the real complaints from the phony ones.

    Since not one person out of 35,000 Maplewood residents including frostbrand, lefty, and jackson have not wanted to shell out $200, well then the claims must not hold much water. Heck, I just spent $3500 on a computer last week. $200 wouldn't even cover the cost of one memory stick. $200 is a drop in the bucket. For those who say, "well why don't you shell out the $200 mr. big spender", I reply that I don't see any evidence to file a complaint on. All I see is Schultz making claims, sucking up newspaper space, and dodging calls for him to cough up the hard evidence.

     
  • At 10:57 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    On the topic of IPAD, you earlier wrote: "Doesn't this guy have some ethical obligaton to report a crime?"

    I asked: Where would he report it?

    You said: IPAD.

    I point out that IPAD doesn't prosecute crimes, issues opinions that are not binding on any court, and they charge you $200 to boot.

    So again, to be clear, you think Schultz had an ethical obligation, because he knows about an open meeting violation, to spend $200 of his own money and ask this body to make a ruling that would not actually settle the matter?

    Sounds to me like a pretty dumb assertion you made. You're dodging and weaving off into other topics, so I just wanted to highlight the point again before chasing off after your errant trains of thought.

     
  • At 11:10 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    Should Maplewood residents turn to IPAD and spend $200? I think they most definitely should not. Let me explain.

    From reading IPAD's own information, it looks mostly like it's the sort of thing elected officials would do to clear themselves in advance of a suit in court, since the one thing a ruling in your favor *can* get you is to minimize the penalties if the court finds for the plaintiffs.

    In other words, if you are suing government officials for an open meeting violation, the only thing an IPAD ruling can do is hurt you, by reducing the penalty that could be applied even if you win.

    Moreover, the IPAD lacks subpoena power and does not do any investigating of its own. They can only rule on the basis of documents and information provided to them by the parties.

    In contrast, an actual lawsuit would enable the plaintiffs to access ISP records, for example, to get copies of the non-city-computer e-mails that Longrie, Cave and Hjelle have used precisely to avoid data practices request access to their communication. (This is an issue that came up a lot early in their term, as people were asking for copies of those e-mails and the Mayor went into a song and dance about how gosh she just doesn't know who would be the person that could fill those requests since she uses a yahoo account and not a city e-mail address.)

    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it looks to me as though someone working on a case would be better off skipping IPAD and going right to district court. Save the $200 and don't risk messing up your case by having IPAD ruling on the basis of incomplete facts.

     
  • At 3:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    So the choice is either IPAD or court. If this is the case, then why are people on this forum going the third route which is to point fingers and make accusations?

    On this court issue, I find some of what Frostbrand is saying to be a fishing expedition. Getting information from an ISP? Keep in mind that state law does protect communication between elected officials and citizens. I believe it also protects communication between elected officials themselves. Only when it is with a government employee does it become public. In the other scenarios, one of the two parties must make it public for it to be public information.

    Are we going to go to court to get an injunction against a law protecting e-mail? Seems like a losing case, especially when it is brought forward in this fishing expedition atmosphere.

    Let's be clear, the yahoo e-mail account has nothing to do with this public or non-public thing. State statute protects communications between elected officials and citizens (i.e. non-city employees)

    As far as IPAD getting the opinion right, I think that depends upon the person requesting the opinion. If you gave them the half-baked accusations I have read on this message board, then yes, IPAD would rule against you. On the other hand, in Stillwater they brought forward solid information against the council and IPAD ruled in favor of the citizens.

     
  • At 10:59 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > So the choice is either IPAD or
    > court.

    Just to be clear, your point was that Schultz was ethically obliged to spend money out of his own pocket to either get an IPAD ruling or, apparently, file a lawsuit himself to enforce the open meeting law.

    Just in case it got lost in the smoke, I wanted people to keep in mind that this is what you were claiming, since you asserted that he had an ethical responsibility to report the wrongdoing to the proper authorities and you have offered these as the only proper authorities that exist.

    > If this is the case, then why are
    > people on this forum going the
    > third route which is to point
    > fingers and make accusations?

    First point: Freedom of speech. Look it up. Until your fellow jackbooted authoritarians take complete control of the country, it's still the way things are.

    Second point: As citizens of Maplewood, we have an interest in our city and how it's run. Regardless of whether the open meeting law was violated, or whether a board or court would find one way or another, the issues at stake are of interest to Maplewood voters and taxpayers, since it's all about how this council operates and what their agenda is.

    For example, in a court of law there may be a big difference between whether the three got together ahead of time to meet Copeland and agree to support his appointment; or whether (as you have argued is the case) one or two of the three didn't care about the details and was happy to mindlessly vote for whatever the other one or two decided.

    In terms of the public's evaluation of the performance of this council, either scenario represents a craptacular council that is worthy of derision and citizen action to limit the further damage they do to our city.

    It might tickle my schadenfreude to see the Gang of Three suffer from an open meeting lawsuit, but it would also be a tragedy for their families, which doesn't give me any joy to contemplate.

     
  • At 11:04 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > I believe it also protects
    > communication between elected
    > officials themselves. Only when it
    > is with a government employee does
    > it become public. In the other
    > scenarios, one of the two parties
    > must make it public for it to be
    > public information.

    Interesting theory. Of course, this would make the open meeting law meaningless -- a quorum could gather privately and make decisions, and then claim that their communications are protected and so open meeting law violations can't be proven.

     
  • At 1:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Frostbrand, I don't think that anything got lost in the smoke here. What we have is a guy shooting off his mouth about Open Meeting violations, claiming that laws are being broken, but will not file a complaint or provide information to others to file a complaint. Seems pretty clear to me. Seems like a classic media stunt.

    I do agree that there is an interest here by people as to how Maplewood runs. It appears though that their interst is more about attacking certain people they do not like rather than discuss policy issues. It is more about scoring political points rather than seeing good government. If you are truly intersted in a good government discussion, we woudln't even have to use the name of one council member in our discussions.


    Frostbrand, what I am bringing forward on this communication issue and about certain things being non-public is not a theory, it is state law.

    Read Minnesota Statutes 13.601, subdivision 2. It states, "Correspondence between individuals and elected officials is private data on individuals but may be made public by either the sender or the recipient.

    This law doesn't make the Open Meeting Law meaningless at all. It protects citizens from being able to have private conversations with their elected officials without them being broadcasted to the world.

     
  • At 2:20 PM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    Dear 64.131.7.123 posting at 1:56 PM:

    Let me clarify that I have no interest in debating the matter of private citizens corresponding with elected officials. It's not relevant to the issue at hand. You could be right. On the other hand, you have repeatedly been proven an unreliable person when it comes to facts, or understanding the plain meaning of words in front of your face, so I would be inclined to doubt you if you told me it was raining outside.

    What interests me is your claim on the topic of elected officials.

    You said,

    > I believe it also protects
    > communication between elected
    > officials themselves.

    In other words, you are telling us that the quorum of a public body, subject to the Minnesota open meeting law, can deliberate in private via correspondence and no one else can have access to the content of their communication, not even a court of law.

    And then you say that this "doesn't make the Open Meeting Law meaningless at all."

    Let's walk through this slowly, as is always necessary when talking with you.

    (1) You say a quorum of public officials can meet in private via correspondence about business before their public body. They could discuss actions they wish to take, and reach consensus on a course of action, all out of the public view.

    (2) You say that such communications are private (even if they are being used to achieve decisions about business before the body to which these elected officials belong) and could only be revealed to someone else if one of the parties agreed to it; even a subpoena pursuant to an open meeting lawsuit could not get access to the correspondence.

    (3) Then you say that this "doesn't make the Open Meeting Law meaningless at all."

    That's a very interesting thread of logic.

    Gosh, isn't it neat how everyone can have opinions?

     
  • At 4:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    A question for, among others, 64.131.7.123:

    I don't think it is at all about "a guy shooting off his mouth about Open Meeting violations..." As I recall, one of the indiviuals that met with Schulz actually admitted to violating the open meeting law. Am I wrong? Or are you going to logically twist this one into a pretty little candy cane as well? After all, it is the holiday season. And we could all use some peppermint scent to cover up the smell from some of the piles being left around.

     
  • At 5:42 PM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    Dear Troll of Ours:

    > What we have is a guy shooting off
    > his mouth about Open Meeting
    > violations, claiming that laws are
    > being broken, but will not file a
    > complaint or provide information to
    > others to file a complaint. Seems
    > pretty clear to me. Seems like a
    > classic media stunt.

    Look, you festering boil on the rump of humanity, what we have is a guy who was hired as a consultant by this council majority. As he was hired to do, he produced a report, and in that report shared his concerns about open meeting law violations.

    This is what you label a "media stunt," you walking embodiment of intellectual poverty? That's pathetic, which is only what we've come to expect from you.

    As for the complaint, you drooling lackwit, we have gone over repeatedly the fact that there is no authority with which he would simply file such a complaint. He would have to file a suit himself, and I don't even know if he would have standing if he's not a resident of Maplewood or otherwise personally affected by the alleged violations. In any case, suing the people who hired him to consult with them doesn't sound like a good plan.

    As for his supposed refusal to provide information to others, have you written or phoned him to ask for this information, or are you just talking out of your butt again, you irrationally self-confident coprophiliac?

    PS: You've been calling for more insults and mud-slinging, so I included some just for you. Just tryin' to be thoughtful in this holiday season.

    xxxooo,
    Frostbrand

     
  • At 10:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I don't find a problem with the council and don't believe these Open Meeting accusations.

    I am wondering why those who are crying the sky is falling haven't called Schultz to get the information.

    Why would me the gal with no problem with what I see, be calling Schultz? Doesn't pass the common sense test.

     
  • At 11:29 PM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > I don't find a problem with the
    > council and don't believe these Open
    > Meeting accusations.

    Boy, I'm glad you cleared that up, Troll from 64.131.7.123. A lot of us weren't sure where you stood on those issues.

    > I am wondering why those who are
    > crying the sky is falling haven't
    > called Schultz to get the
    > information.

    How can you be sure they haven't?

    > Why would me the gal with no
    > problem with what I see, be
    > calling Schultz? Doesn't pass the
    > common sense test.

    Good question.

    Earlier in this thread (Dec. 21 at 2:58 PM) you wrote, "My issue is why won't Schultz provide the rest of us the details so we can file a complaint ourselves?"

    I wasn't sure then why you suddenly wanted to file a lawsuit against your heroes, and I asked you what Schultz gave as his reason for refusing your request. I don't think you gave an answer.

    You can pretend that someone else posted that, but our logs say it was you, posting from the same IP address that you used at 1:19 AM for the very first comment in this thread.

    You made it sound as though you'd been in contact with Schultz and you were rebuffed in your attempts to get the information at issue.

    I guess you just made that up.

     
  • At 1:07 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Now that you published an IP address for the world to see, now anyone with some computer knowledge can fake this address and you guys are blind again. Not good thinking. You keep things like IP addresses secret.

    Maybe I should change my IP address tomorrow. Any ideas on what I should change it too? Maybe a comcast.net account. Anyone have an IP address trackable to Iraq. That should get people talking.

    On the Schultz issue, if I had all the information in my hands, I would file a lawsuit as soon as my feet would take me to the courthouse. The best way to kill all of the accusations is to have a legitimate court of law dismiss the case as lacking probable cause. But I know that some of the detractors would not want this to happen because they would lose their media sound bite. Maybe that is why none of the detractors have seriously pursued this. (Note: Filing a complaint with the wrong agency is not what I would call serious pursuing of anything but big media headlines.)

     
  • At 1:33 AM, Blogger Frostbrand said…

    > Now that you published an IP
    > address for the world to see, now
    > anyone with some computer
    > knowledge can fake this address
    > and you guys are blind again. Not
    > good thinking. You keep things
    > like IP addresses secret.

    Let's be clear: You published the IP address by editing Wikipedia and thereby having it recorded in their changelogs, visible to the public. Regardless of what you do in the future, your action there links what you did there with 40+ comments to date here on our blog.

    More important than establishing your real-world identity is just to point out that all the pro-Longrie noise here is really just one voice droning on endlessly, and with little sense. Kinda like Longrie herself does.

    > Maybe I should change my IP
    > address tomorrow. Any ideas on
    > what I should change it too? Maybe
    > a comcast.net account. Anyone have
    > an IP address trackable to Iraq.
    > That should get people talking.

    You do know that your current IP address is identified as someplace outside of Minnesota already, right?

    Why don't you use this IP address: 10.0.0.10 just to pick one. Fake that address and send up a message to show us how it's done, and we will all bow before your l33t haXXorz sKiLz.

    If you are concerned about protecting your identity, and we can see that you have sometimes been trying to sound like you are multiple people, why haven't you been changing your IP address with each comment? Is that a lot of work?

    In any case, now everyone will assume that every future pro-Longrie comment is just little old you, assuming a new persona and spoofing a new IP address. I'm not sure if that was your goal, but there you have it.

    > On the Schultz issue, if I had all
    > the information in my hands, I
    > would file a lawsuit as soon as my
    > feet would take me to the
    > courthouse.

    I guess you answered your own question then.

    Give Schultz a call, make it happen! Then you can pay $200 to IPAD, or file a suit in district court, and prove your point.

     
  • At 10:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Dear Dear Longrie-ite:

    Do yourself a favor. Stick to only one subject you know nothing about. An IP address form Iraq?

    I don't know that you want to start digging into the computer sciences. You have proven that you have enough trouble with the political sciences...

     

Post a Comment

<< Home