Open Meeting Law
I wanted to follow up with a reply of my own to an earlier thread. Given that it's a little long, I figured I'd make this a posting of its own.
Our first anonymous commenter on that topic wrote,
For a start, it is false that the county attorney "only can handle felony cases." While the county attorney is responsible for felony cases, they clearly may be involved in lesser charges as well. For example, on the Ramsey County Attorney's website, we read "The three prosecutors in the [Joint Domestic Abuse Prosecution] unit review all levels of domestic assault – from misdemeanors to felonies." It is absurd to think that a county attorney would be prohibited from prosecuting misdemeanors; wouldn't that mean that they would not be allowed to plea bargain a felony down to a misdemeanor, because then they would no longer have jurisdiction? Or that if they determined a case under investigation did not warrant felony charges, they would be forced to drop it entirely?
Moreover, according to the Minnesota Legislature document referenced by our original reader, open meeting violations are an issue of civil law, not criminal, so they are neither misdemeanors nor felonies. I don't know if this specific matter falls under the county attorney's purview, but clearly the county attorney does handle both civil and criminal matters.
I could be wrong, but I have the impression that open meeting law cases tend to be brought by individuals. Past open meeting law cases I'm aware of have included parents suing a school board for allegedly making decisions outside of public meetings about which schools in a district to close, for example. I don't know if this is so because of the law, or just because it's individual parties that have had the interest in pursuing cases.
According to that document on the legislature's website, the remedies for violations of the law are as follows:
The legislature's document continues:
Finally, the document tells us:
In terms of “putting their money where their mouth is,” this may indeed be required. It may be necessary for interested parties – for example, a group of Maplewood citizens, or wrongfully terminated employees, or developers who suffered from decisions against them made behind closed doors, or what have you – to take the initiative and file a suit in district court. Three such successful legal actions could remove the mayor or councilor(s) from office before the expiration of their terms.
At the very least, the discovery process would no doubt turn up some very interesting records about what this council does behind closed doors. Given the evidence and testimony already on the public record, it's hard to imagine that a suit would be deemed frivolous.
Our first anonymous commenter on that topic wrote,
What get me though with this Maplewood situation is why don't all of these people making open meeting violation claims actually file a complaint with the appropriate people? Note that the County Attorney is not the appropriate party since she only can handle felony cases and open meeting violations are simple misdemeaners. The complaint is supposed to be filed with the city prosecutor who will be required to farm it out to another city prosecutor in another city.I dare say we have a case here of another self-proclaimed expert making erroneous claims (after humorously criticizing others for the same). :)
For a start, it is false that the county attorney "only can handle felony cases." While the county attorney is responsible for felony cases, they clearly may be involved in lesser charges as well. For example, on the Ramsey County Attorney's website, we read "The three prosecutors in the [Joint Domestic Abuse Prosecution] unit review all levels of domestic assault – from misdemeanors to felonies." It is absurd to think that a county attorney would be prohibited from prosecuting misdemeanors; wouldn't that mean that they would not be allowed to plea bargain a felony down to a misdemeanor, because then they would no longer have jurisdiction? Or that if they determined a case under investigation did not warrant felony charges, they would be forced to drop it entirely?
Moreover, according to the Minnesota Legislature document referenced by our original reader, open meeting violations are an issue of civil law, not criminal, so they are neither misdemeanors nor felonies. I don't know if this specific matter falls under the county attorney's purview, but clearly the county attorney does handle both civil and criminal matters.
I could be wrong, but I have the impression that open meeting law cases tend to be brought by individuals. Past open meeting law cases I'm aware of have included parents suing a school board for allegedly making decisions outside of public meetings about which schools in a district to close, for example. I don't know if this is so because of the law, or just because it's individual parties that have had the interest in pursuing cases.
According to that document on the legislature's website, the remedies for violations of the law are as follows:
The open meeting law provides a civil penalty of up to $300 for intentional violation. A person who is found to have intentionally violated the law in three or more legal actions involving the same governmental body forfeits the right to serve on that body for a time equal to the term the person was serving. The Minnesota Supreme Court has held that this removal provision is constitutional, provided that the violations occurred after the person had a reasonable amount of time to learn the responsibilities of office.Given that the former city manager, the city attorney, and the outside consultant Prof. Schultz, all quite strongly and repeatedly warned the council about the law and its implications, and did so on the public record starting in the earliest days of the terms of Longrie, Hjelle, and Cave, it seems clear that these people know their responsibility to follow the law in this area.
The legislature's document continues:
A public body may not pay a civil penalty on behalf of a person who violated the law. However, a public body may pay any costs, disbursements, or attorney fees incurred by or awarded against a member of the body in an action under the open meeting law if the member was found not guilty of a violation. [emphasis mine]So if suit is brought against the triumvirate and decided against them, they are personally on the hook for both the $300 and the cost of their defense -- and possibly the cost of the plaintiff's attorney as well. What might that come to? The legislature's document continues:
A court may award reasonable costs, disbursements, and reasonable attorney fees of up to $13,000 to any party in an action under the open meeting law. However, the following conditions apply:Again, there have been multiple warnings about the open meeting law (all the way up to the city attorneys resigning because their warnings were repeatedly ignored), which I think would play into the question of intent against the gang of three's favor.
• A court may award costs and attorney fees to a defendant only if it finds that the action was frivolous and without merit
• A court may award monetary penalties or attorney fees against a member of a public body only if the court finds there was specific intent to violate the open meeting law
Finally, the document tells us:
The appropriate mechanism to enforce the open meeting law is to bring an action in district court seeking injunctive relief or damages. The statute does not provide for a declaratory judgment action.So district court is where the action occurs, but it's still not clear to me who has standing to bring it (if it has to be individual citizens, or if for example the County Attorney could bring suit on behalf of the people).
In terms of “putting their money where their mouth is,” this may indeed be required. It may be necessary for interested parties – for example, a group of Maplewood citizens, or wrongfully terminated employees, or developers who suffered from decisions against them made behind closed doors, or what have you – to take the initiative and file a suit in district court. Three such successful legal actions could remove the mayor or councilor(s) from office before the expiration of their terms.
At the very least, the discovery process would no doubt turn up some very interesting records about what this council does behind closed doors. Given the evidence and testimony already on the public record, it's hard to imagine that a suit would be deemed frivolous.
21 Comments:
At 2:48 PM, Anonymous said…
Where the [heck] are the media? I have read stories, seen and heard news reports, etc., regarding what is going on, but why has no media organization stepped up regarding the Open Meeting Law?
At 2:41 AM, Anonymous said…
As has been pointed out, we still don't have a complaint before us that any officer within the judicial system has any interest in looking at. Maybe this is telling us something?
All I see is "charge-trial-conviction by the press". I have prettly little faith that the press even has an average level of common sense.
I also find it humerous that just because the Ramsey County Attorney's site says they can handle lesser than felony cases, that by God, this must be the gospel.
Read the County Attorney website statement more slowly. The key word is "review." Hey, any tom, dick, and harry can "review." There is nothing there that says "prosecute".
The determination of if a case is handled by the county attorney or city prosecuting attorney depends upon how the case is charged. If charged with a felony, then county attorney. If the crime is lesser, then city prosecutor. In areas of the county where there is no organized city, then it all goes to the county attorney. Plea bargining is a later issue in the process. If a county declines to prosecute a felony, then the city typically has lesser charges to move forward on depending upon the case.
With all due respect to Dr. Schultz, he isn't a judge. As has been said by another person, a lot of people think things are violations of open meeting laws, but in the end, they may be unethical, but hardly illegal.
It doesn't matter whether anyone has been warned about their activity as it relates to the open meeting law. Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. This isn't even an issue worth further discussion.
Anyone can bring forward an action for an open meeting violation. My first suggestion would be to send your supposed "proof" to the Information Policy Analysis Division of the Minnesota Department of Administration. Pay your fee and they will render an opinion. While not binding, the opinion can be used in a court action. In one city I am familiar with, it was a developer who brought forward the claim through a larger overall lawsuit. The council members were having serial consecutive meetings organized by their city attorney just minutes before the council meeting began. The court tossed the case.
I honestly don't think that you will come up with much information about supposed things that have happened "behind closed doors". Too much about this issue has already been put out in the open.
I think where you will find the smoking guns are with the previous city councils. Now none of their actions have been aired one iota. I would venture to guess that there were multiple secret meetings on past councils. Common sense says that you don't vote 5-0 100 times in a row with little to no discussions. Don't tell me that 5 people think the same all the time on every issue. I just don't buy it.
At 9:11 AM, Frostbrand said…
> Read the County Attorney website
> statement more slowly. The key word
> is "review." Hey, any tom, dick, and
> harry can "review." There is nothing
> there that says "prosecute".
If you read the whole page, it does talk about prosecuting. Specifically, it mentions that in the past "The County Attorney's Office handled the felony-level domestic assaults, as well as child maltreatment and child protection cases." (I.e., child maltreatment cases were handled even at the misdemeanor level.) Now this county attorney office handles "[a]ggressively prosecuting all levels of domestic assault."
To say that a county attorney is legally prohibited from prosecuting anything short of a felony is just wrong.
It's also irrelevant to the open meeting law. It is, however, relevant to whether we can trust you to understand what you read or know what you're talking about when you speak about the open meeting law or other matters.
At 10:01 AM, Anonymous said…
"I think where you will find the smoking guns are with the previous city councils. Now none of their actions have been aired one iota. I would venture to guess that there were multiple secret meetings on past councils. Common sense says that you don't vote 5-0 100 times in a row with little to no discussions. Don't tell me that 5 people think the same all the time on every issue. I just don't buy it."
I actually can buy it, because I've seen it happen elsewhere.
I've visited both the St. Anthony and Woodbury City Councils, and in my experience, neither has made any votes that weren't unanimous. (Not to say they've never disagreed or voted against each other, but I haven't seen it or heard about it.) In addition, many of those votes are made with little discussion or arguments, and they make extensive use of what's known as the 'consent agenda,' or a list of items approved at once without discussion (usually minor city buisness).
I don't believe either city is holding secret meetings. Rather, you have a council of experienced members working with a city staff that is competent and trustworthy. The city council also does their 'homework,' as in reviewing the issues days beforehand. New council members are willing to learn how government works from older members (the main reason why terms are staggered, after all.) Finally, council members are willing to reach consensus with each other, and vote accordingly.
None of this is a violation of Open Meeting Law, rather examples of good government in action. Maplewood's 3-2 voting record isn't an example of vibrant democracy, it's a case of the majority being unwilling to make compromises that would get everyone on board. Add in the fact that the majority is new to city government (and I doubt very willing to learn from the two council members with experience), has a city manager with no experience in his field and finally the fact that they've been busy firing or running off their experienced staff, and you have why Maplewood's government is so disfunctional.
At 10:09 AM, drawnLeftward said…
They campaigned as a bloc, they vote as a bloc, they talk (usually out of Diana's mouth) as a bloc. This is plain to any observer.
Somebody might put together the wherewithal to get this in front of a court of law, but the court of public opinion will for sure get a chance in a few months.
At 3:25 AM, Anonymous said…
I guess I have to prove that I knwo what I am talking about so here are my comments about Frostbrand's statement last statement...
"To say that a county attorney is legally prohibited from prosecuting anything short of a felony is just wrong."
This is exactly what the situation is whether Frostbrand agrees with it or not.
There are several laws governing what County Attorneys can and cannot do, especially in the metro area.
For example, the Ramsey County Attorney shall be the only person to prosecute certain gross misdemeanor violations in chapter 289a, 297B, 609, and 617. They shall prosecute failure to report physical or sexual child abuse or neglect under chapter 626, and fifth-degree criminal sexual assult under 609 and environmental law violations under 115, 299F, and 609. The list goes on and on.
In chapter 412, it states that the city shall be responsible for prosecuting city ordinances.
The county attorney also shall prosecute felonies, including the drawing of indictments found by a grand jury, and to the extent prescribed by law, gross midemeanors, misdemeanors, petty misdemeanors, violations of municipal ordinances, charter provisions, and rules or regulations. This is where the other sections of law are attached to and serve as my point.
In the case of Pharmacy violations, the county attorney shall prosecute, with the exception of Saint Paul, Minneapolis, and Duluth.
In Maplewood, the city prosecutor handles petty misdemeanor, misdemeanor, and gross misdemeanor charges. Is this by accident? Why doesn't the county attorney just barge in whenever she wants? Well because they are laws, agreements, rules, etc. which govern who takes the lead in these situations which is what I have said several times already.
Maybe someone should ask for the technical documentation at public comment so we can find out what we already know.
Since it appears like I have a pretty good handle on this prosecuting issue, in the words of other writers, apparently this means that my credibility on my open meeting law comments has been restored.
I do have to offer some comments in reply to drawnleftward and jackson concerning this statement, "Maplewood's 3-2 voting record isn't an example of vibrant democracy, it's a case of the majority being unwilling to make compromises that would get everyone on board."
When I was at the last Lillie-Wiger open house, I heard no one decry the split voting record of the House and Senate. I watched it on tv and I saw hundreds of votes where the DFL or Republican majority was completely unwilling to make compromises to bring everyone on board. Every major bill was a split vote, something like 68-66 in the House and 35-32 in the Senate. I have been watching legislative television every year since 1996. Same thing, no willingness to compromise to bring everyone on board.
Why is it bad or undemocratic for the Maplewood to vote 3-2 which is essentially 60% yes and 40% no when it is perfectly ok for the Minnesota house to constantly vote 68-66 or 51% yes, 49% no?
Those of you who keep bringing up this phony garbage about how these Maplewood votes have to be more unanimous or that they have some obligation to get more closer to unanimous votes are just blowing smoke. Give me a break!
This double talk makes me ill.
I would just like to see one of you take it to Wiger in a newspaper editorial calling him on the carpet for not acting more democratic and not doing his job to make more votes on bills closer to unanimous.
I know if I was Wiger I would say pound sand. We are elected to vote as WE feel best represents our district and why should I compromise my values to make a bill pass by 67% versus 58%. The last time I checked, it took 50% + 1 to pass a bill out of the Senate.
Maybe we need an editorial decrying how terrible it was for Wiger and Lillie to run as that DFL team. Shame on them for sharing resources. If you are going to complain about Diana, Rebecca, and Erik, better go after those who started this "party/team" thing first.
At 9:58 AM, Frostbrand said…
Uh...
Let's walk through this slowly, so that even people who didn't take freshman logic will be able to understand.
You said, categorically: County attorneys can ONLY prosecute felonies.
I said that I did not think this is true. To prove that you are wrong, all we need is a single example of a non-felony offense that is prosecuted by the Ramsey County Attorney. Just one! Clear enough?
Let's put it in abstract logical terms. If we have the claim "All X are Y" before us, then if we find even a single instance of X that is *not* Y, then the statement is false.
I say: there exist some non-felonies (e.g., gross misdemeanors and lesser charges) prosecuted by county attorneys.
I provided specific examples, from the Ramsey County website, of non-felonies that they prosecute.
However, you still say I'm wrong.
As evidence, you are providing MORE examples of non-felonies that the law says Ramsey County shall prosecute?!
To quote you: "For example, the Ramsey County Attorney shall be the only person to prosecute certain gross misdemeanor violations in chapter 289a, 297B, 609, and 617."
So...um....a gross misdemeanor is a lesser charge than a felony. You have quoted a passage that says that ONLY the Ramsey County Attorney shall prosecute these NON-FELONIES.
So, you go to considerable trouble to cut and paste text that DISPROVES YOUR POINT, and then repeat that you think you're right?
And then you say that this has restored your credibility, so we should believe your previous remarks about the open meeting law?
Look, pal, you've convinced me that I couldn't trust you to understand the directions on a bag of microwave popcorn, let alone interpret the law.
Come to think of it, you sound a LOT like Diana does when she starts interpreting the law from her seat at the council meetings.
At 10:39 AM, Anonymous said…
For one thing, I'd personally love to see the Democrats and Republicans working together more at every level of government. I think both sides can moderate the excesses of each other, and produce something paltable for everyone.
That being said, comparing the state government to the city of Maplewood is disengenous. For one thing, a state is comprised of millions of people from many walks of life, whereas Maplewood is a suburban community of 34,000, a majority of which are middle class and come from similar economic, ethinic and societal backgrounds. Finding a "common good" is much simpler for Maplewood, because what people want (in general) is going to be more similar than what a person living in Minneapolis wants vs. someone in the Iron Range.
In addition, the issues facing a city like Maplewood are a lot simpler than the entire state. Whether or not to fill potholes on a street is an easier decision than DOMA, for example, and even the redevelopment of Gladstone is less complex than deciding an education or transit budget for millions of people and hundreds of cities and towns.
But this is all somewhat beside the point. I'm arguing with Mr. Anonymous as if we each have equally viable points, and we don't. It's a symptom of how flawed political discourse has become in this country, partially because of the media. Whenever there is a controversy, the media strives to find both sides of an issue, and present both of their arguements equally, in the idea of fairness. But you know? Sometimes one side is just plain wrong. They've got nothing factual or scientific backing them up, and against them there's an array of facts and science. So Mr. Anonymous, I'm calling you WRONG.
At 3:48 PM, Anonymous said…
Frostbrand, let me disect your comments a little bit more closely also.
You made claims that county attorneys can persue any claims they wish. Clearly the evidence shows that at least in this State, the County Attorney doesn't call the shots. The legislature does.
I did indeed say that county attorneys can only prosecute felonies. City prosecutors have no authority under any statute that I can find giving them the authority to prosecute felonies also.
Concerning Jackson's comments, yes it might be nice in certain circumstances to see Dems and Reps work together. But on the other hand, I don't want my representatives compromising the values they were elected on just for some bipartisan photo op. It is a balancing act, or to use the term Jackson uses "moderate".
I don't find a problem with comparing state government and Maplewood government. For one, they are one in the same. Maplewood residents are residents of the state of Minnesota. When it comes to economic, ethnic, and societal backgrounds, you would find that Maplewood somewhat mirrors the state averages. Maplewood has their share of rich and poor, we have a minority rate of at least 10%, and our societal values don't seem to differ from any of our neighboring cities or counties.
I think that maybe in small town Minnesota, where the disparity between rich and poor is much closer, and they have never seen a minority except on TV, and everyone is related in the sense that they can trace their lineage to a common country or continent, they might have an easier time finding a "common good".
But "common good" cannot be wrapped up this neatly. It really has to be looked at issue by issue. In Maplewood, clerly no "common good" can be found when it comes to reorganizing city departments. But when I saw their discussion of limiting the locations where sexual predators could live, I did see a "common good" conversation held by all 5 members.
Expanding this to state government, I think we would see similar results. Disagreements on the first issue, but common agreement on the second. Legislation shows this because just about every session this decade has had laws passed by wide margins on these sexual predator issues.
Whether issues at the city level or state level of government are easier to solve, is all in the minds of those discussing the issue. Take a look at those street reconstruction hearings where everyone and their uncle come out to say their two cents. There are more people at those meetings than I have ever seen show up at a DOMA hearing at the legislature. If you did a percentage analysis, I bet those putting in their two cents on a street reconstruction project percentage wise do outnumber the DOMA people.
My viewpoint on the media does not clearly agree or disagree with Jackson.
Jackson bases his opinions on his view of the media as an organization which tries to find both sides of an issue and report on each of them for fairness, even if one side is right and one side is wrong.
I see the media as first and foremost wanting to sell more newspapers in an era of declining readership. I don't see them actively trying to report on both sides or with fairness. If this happens it is by accident. I and many others see the media as simply participating in sensational writing, i.e. fingerpointing, accusations, etc. in order to sell more papers.
I wish we could return to the old days where we did have indepth reporting, we did have the presentation of researched facts, and there were serious attempts to truly educate the readers with concrete material.
Jackson and I really can't have much of a debate on this media issue because we fundamentally believe that the media is acting in two different fashons.
As a side note, it is sad that society seems to feel that Britney Spears choice of clothing makes bigger headlines than Arab-Isreal peace prospects.
At 4:23 PM, Frostbrand said…
> You made claims that county
> attorneys can persue any claims they
> wish.
No, I did not. You claimed that county attorneys CAN ONLY PROSECUTE FELONIES. I said that this is not so.
In the remedial logic department, I feel compelled to observe that "some" and "any" are not in fact synonyms. So when I tell you that county attorneys prosecute SOME misdemeanors (which are specifically delineated, as it happens), I am NOT saying that they can prosecute ANY misdemeanor they like, nor for that matter am I saying they can or must prosecute ALL misdemeanors.
If a single non-felony (say, a gross misdemeanor) can be prosecuted by a county attorney, your original claim is false. We found multiple non-felonies prosecuted by the county attorney. Thus, your claim is false. You gave us more examples that refuted your own claim, and asserted that they proved your point. That is utterly baffling.
Also under the heading of remedial remedial logic, when I say that county attorneys do not ONLY prosecute felonies, I am neither denying that they prosecute felonies, nor am I implying that anyone else is prosecuting felonies.
I know this is tough to follow, so let's recap, starting with your own recent words:
> I did indeed say that county
> attorneys can only prosecute
> felonies.
And you were wrong.
If you mistyped and meant to say, "only county attorneys can prosecute felonies," you were still wrong, because the state Attorney General can prosecute felonies, as can federal prosecutors.
What's more, the entire argument you launched is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the issue at hand, because open meeting law violations are a matter of civil, not criminal law.
In other words, you have now given us volumes of text expounding on your completely erroneous beliefs on a topic irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Good heavens, if you're not already on the city council of Maplewood, you'd be right at home there today.
> City prosecutors have no authority
> under any statute that I can find
> giving them the authority to
> prosecute felonies also.
That's well and good, but again, it is completely irrelevant and does not contradict anything I've said.
If you like, you can also tell me that you've found no statute authorizing pay-per-call firefighters to prosecute felonies. Once again, that may be true (I strongly suspect it is, but I'm not going to waste time looking it up!), but it does not have any relevance to the question of what county attorneys may prosecute.
As for your other opinions, here and in other threads, I have to tell you that your crippled grasp of logic and your nonexistent reading comprehension skills, make it pretty tough for anyone to do much more than pat you on the head and say, "That's nice! Gosh, isn't it great how EVERYONE can have opinions?"
At 4:19 AM, Anonymous said…
Can someone provide me some evidence that this statement is true?
"the state Attorney General can prosecute felonies, as can federal prosecutors"
Last time I checked, the AG can only be invited by a County Attorney for assistance. In fact, I remember one of those TV commercials attacking Mike Hatch said that County Attorneys were not happy that Hatch was not there to help when asked.
How can federal prosecutors charge on state laws? That seems a little backward.
Any comments?
Sincerely,
Mr. Brilliant
At 11:52 AM, Frostbrand said…
4:19 AM says:
> Can someone provide me some
> evidence that this statement is
> true?
>
> "the state Attorney General can
> prosecute felonies,
From the Attorney General's website:
(http://www.ag.state.mn.us/office/Default.htm#About%20the%20Attorney%20General's%20Office:)
"The Office handles felony criminal appeals, advises local prosecutors in the conduct of criminal trials and handles cases at the request of local prosecutors."
It may happen at the request of local prosecutors, but that does not change the truth of my assertion, which was simply "the state Attorney General can prosecute felonies."
> Last time I checked, the AG can
> only be invited by a County
> Attorney for assistance.
Clever lawyers that they are, the county attorneys know the AG is able to prosecute felonies, or they would not invite them to take over cases.
Once again, something you think contradicts my statement in fact does not, but rather provides evidence to demonstrate my point.
> How can federal prosecutors charge
> on state laws? That seems a little
> backward.
Your confusion arises because you imagine that I wrote "felonies under state law," but I actually wrote only "felonies," a much broader category which includes felonies under federal law, which would be prosecuted by federal attorneys.
If you want to claim that we're talking about the state's open meeting law, let me remind you that we are not, because it was established much earlier in this discussion that the Open Meeting Law is not a criminal matter, and this whole "who can prosecute felonies and non-felonies?" argument is just a digression.
At 1:42 PM, Anonymous said…
I Find it interesting the the three say we never did anything wrong regardnig the onpen meeting law since we took office. mmmmm
Facts that I have been given and seen and a digital file I have heard says differently.
In March, a council person walked into City Hall and told staff he wanted a certian public meeting run a different way than was proposed. He walked in saying he had the support of Eric and Diana. He told anyone that if they did not do as he says they would be fired. The format of the meeting was changed.
I have an e-mail from Diana confirming that she talked to this council member but made it very clear she did not talk to Eric. I also have information that Eric confirms saying he talked to Dave Bartol saying go ahead.
There is a digital document that has much more information with Dave voicing he has authority of the council.
If Eric and Diana were really innocent they would have said something publiclly at the meeting when it was first brougth up.They did not deny giving Dave approval to do what he did.
Oh but wait, They tried but stopped when they heard there was a digital recording of everything. That is why they no longer trusted Richard and said we have to fire him now.
Also I have several e-mails from Diana claiming that the only reference to violations were before they took office. Insteresting because city documents that I have recieved showed that there have been three instances. All of them occured after they took office. One in January, One in February and on in March. This document was given to all City Council memebers on March 10. On the 13 Diana called a special meeting for the 14 and this is when the first attemp to fire Richard was made.
This is why poeple have problems with the three. What they say and the facts they leave behind do not match up.
At 5:01 PM, Anonymous said…
Some language from the Anoka County Attorney website.
"For questions concerning prosecution of misdemeanors, city ordinance violations, or matters involving municipal government, contact your city attorney."
At 5:04 PM, Anonymous said…
More from Anoka County...
Prosecution of all felonies which occur in Anoka County.
Prosecution of all juvenile matters which arise in Anoka County
Establishment of paternities, civil commitments, child support enforcement, daycare and foster care licensing, and certain guardianships
Investigation of public assistance fraud, election law violations, and certain white-collar crimes (Note: election law prosecution changed with the new Administrative Hearing process)
Looks like I was right about the County Attorney handling all Felonies.
At 6:09 PM, Frostbrand said…
> Looks like I was right about the
> County Attorney handling all
> Felonies.
Have you heard of the murder of Dru Sjodin and the trial of Alfonso Rodriguez?
Sjodin's body was found in a ravine near Crookston, Minnesota. I'm pretty sure her murder was a felony (the penalty being 1 year or more in prison is what separates a felony from lesser crimes, yes? I could be rusty on my definitions).
So by your reasoning, we should expect a county attorney to prosecute her killer, correct? This is a felony, and ALL felonies, you say, are prosecuted by county attorneys?
And yet...the news articles I read just now quotes U.S. Attorney Drew Wrigley as a prosecutor, and tells us about the U.S. attorney's office pursuing the case in Federal court.
I provide this as a high-profile example that all our readers will remember, and easily be able to verify, in case any of them might be tempted to give your ignorant proclamations the benefit of the doubt.
In short, you are wrong.
As for Anoka County, the blurb you quote is misleading. Elsewhere on the Anoka County website you can find at least one example where they have handed a felony case to the US Attorney for prosecution
http://www.co.anoka.mn.us/departments/co_attorney/maytrain.htm
"Recently in Anoka County, an individual was arrested and charged with Aggravated Robbery and three counts of Assault in the Second Degree. The individual pointed his firearm at a woman and stole her car. The individual then fired and/or brandished his weapon at three innocent bystanders. Because of Project Safety On, this case was jointly examined by both the Anoka County Attorney=s Office and the United States Attorney=s Office and the decision was jointly made that the United States Attorney=s Office could most effectively prosecute the case to achieve the best overall enforcement of the federal firearms laws."
(a) the crime occurred in Anoka County
(b) it was a felony prosecution
(c) it was NOT prosecuted by the Anoka County Attorney, but rather by the US Attorney
In case my point hasn't been made clear yet: You are wrong.
At 1:01 PM, Anonymous said…
Diana made the claim at the last council meeting - there can be no open meeting law violation proven by Mr. Schultz because he only talked to 4 out of 5 council members.
She forgets that if you have a written document from Eric Hjelle saying the City manager is to take action a, b and c and Eric says he have approval from two others. Mr. Schultz only has to talk to the two others to verify the violation. He does not need to talk to Eric.
It would appear to me that he received confirmation when he talked to the other two council poeple involved - Diana and Rebbeca or it could be Will or Kathy ( highly unlikely)
At 3:27 AM, Anonymous said…
Frostbrand, look more closely at the Dru Sjodin case. The reason it is in federal court is because the abduction occurred in North Dakota and the body ended up in Minnesota. Crossing state lines makes this a federal case. Kidnapping is a federal crime when it crosses state lines.
Frostbrand, your example doesn't hold water.
On this Hjelle list, can we see the list of items he said there was council agreement on? Without knowing the points on this list, any claims against him are meaningless. Here's why.
If one of Hjelle's statements is that the community center will be profitable in one year, I would say that he did not need to talk to the other members to come to that conclusion. Rossbach published that on the city website, and if Cave said that during the campaign, or even to him personally, then you have your three, and no open meeting violation occurred. Hjelle talks to Cave, then reads Rossbach's website statement, and BANG, Hjelle can send a letter to the manager telling him to make the community center profitable because a majority of the council members said they wanted it.
The open meeting accusations from some are just entertaining reading. Without some of these core facts, they have little more value than this.
At 11:25 AM, Frostbrand said…
> Frostbrand, look more closely at
> the Dru Sjodin case. The reason it
> is in federal court is because the
> abduction occurred in North Dakota
> and the body ended up in
> Minnesota. Crossing state lines
> makes this a federal case.
> Kidnapping is a federal crime when
> it crosses state lines.
Sigh. Back to the remedial logic for you.
Let me quote you: "Looks like I was right about the County Attorney handling all Felonies."
Dru Sjodin's murder-kidnapping was a felony. It was not handled by a County Attorney. Thus, not all felonies are handled by county attorneys.
WHY it is not handled by a county attorney is beside the point. The fact is that you made a universal claim about the prosecution of "all felonies," and you were utterly and completely wrong.
I also provided an example of a felony within the very county you were citing (Anoka) that was not prosecuted by the CA, but instead by the US Attorney. That example by itself proves your assertion false as well.
At 3:49 AM, Anonymous said…
Frostbrand, you have made some statements that I know squat about this issue and that you know otherwise. But when I point out your lack of knowledge of state versus federal issues, the reply is that your statements are "beside the point."
Your claim about Anoka County and that felony firearms case just strengthens my position, not yours. See it was the County Attorney who voluntarily turned it over to federal authorities.
You should read up on the 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
This is why the feds must ask the state for permission to take over these cases.
At 11:11 AM, Frostbrand said…
You claimed that ALL felonies must be prosecuted by county attorneys.
We have identified numerous felonies that are prosecuted by people who are not county attorneys.
Therefore, YOU WERE WRONG.
Everything else is just digression and your effort to throw up a smoke screen. (In fact, this whole business is a smoke screen you threw up to change the subject from your utter WRONGness on earlier topics.) We can talk at length about what circumstances lead to other attorneys prosecuting such cases, or discuss the fine points of the constitution, but that's just distracting from the core point.
You made a broad, universal statements about the category of ALL FELONIES, and it was WRONG.
Perhaps the vastness of your knowledge has left you in a befuddled state where you are unable to express yourself clearly and precisely. It is entirely possible that you did know the facts when you made that WRONG statement. But the fact remains that the words you actually used to express your voluminous knowledge, put together in that specific expression, added up to a claim in plain English that was WRONG.
Maybe you really do know a lot about the issues but are just incapable of expressing yourself. Perhaps you could audit a freshman composition class somewhere to help you with that?
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